Franz Lugena vs Darl Chinchilla
[The following is the full text of one of my earlier debates on RH Bill posted in the Harapan Page in Face Book. I tried to find the link but it seems like the page no longer exists. Fortunately, I managed to save the text. Enjoy!!]
"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's and unto God the things which be God's." (Luke 20:25)
7:48 PM ng Huwebes · Gustuhin
Then God will be rendered nothing :)
11:36 PM ng Huwebes · Gustuhin
A growing population is a king’s glory; a dwindling nation is his doom. [Proverbs14:28]
11:36 PM ng Huwebes · Gustuhin
Yes it would be a king's doom, but luckily we have grown past the age of kings, where politics was nil, and might was right.
Kahapon sa ganap na 12:07 AM · Gustuhin
Kings, presidents, etc. these are just titles of rulers. Noon, hari. Ngayon, presidente. The point is, a growing population gives glory. While a dwindling nation causes doom.
Kahapon sa ganap na 12:21 AM · Gustuhin
Not when resources are too scarce to support the population. The key to a successful kingdom is balance, as I have said before, humans are programmable.
Kahapon sa ganap na 12:38 AM · Gustuhin
I don't buy the idea that the resources are scarce. We have enough for the need of everyone. The problem is in distribution of resources and the greed of those in power. Gandhi said it best: "There is enough for everyone's need but not for everyone's greed." If a person gets far more than he needs, he is in effect robbing his neighbors. The solution is to remove greed thru values formation and fix the unjust distribution of resources thru implementation of just economic policies. Even if you managed to reduce our current population of 90million by half, there is no guarantee that there will be no poverty. As long as greedy people are in power and unfair economic policies are in effect, there will always be poor people in our country.
Kahapon sa ganap na 1:06 AM · Gustuhin · 2 katao
Tut tut, you are thinking within your lifetime. Do you seriously think that the Philippines would have enough resources to last for, say, 300 years. The fact is, that 90 million of yours isn't a static number, without family planning, condoms and such it'd be a burden that increases in weight and rate expansion with each generation.If you don't trust the government then at least trust the scientists who come up with these statistics.
Kahapon sa ganap na 1:26 AM · Gustuhin
I'll visualize it for you, if for example you where carrying a basin that can carry a finite volume of sand, and if for example I one day decided that I'd drop a grain of sand into the basin, the look of grief on your face brought so much pleasure to me that I then decided that for every grain of sand in the basin I'd drop two once a year for an infinite amount of years. But, if so ever that you let go of the basin or if the basin fills and the sand spills on to the floor, I'll kill you then and there.
Now substitute you for the Philippines, the sand for the human population, the basin for the volume of inhabitable land, and your all set.
Now substitute you for the Philippines, the sand for the human population, the basin for the volume of inhabitable land, and your all set.
Kahapon sa ganap na 1:38 AM · Gustuhin
Teaching people not to become greedy and implementing just economic policies are sustainable solutions to our growing problems. When I say sustainable, they are not just applicable for today. They can be done for years to come. Actually, they will be "must" in the future. So you are clearly mistaken accusing me of thinking only about this lifetime. Just like what I said earlier, even if you managed to cut down our population of 90million by half, there is no guarantee that there will be no poverty. As long as you turn a blind eye to ongoing unfair economic policies and we keep electing corrupt leaders, there will always be poor people in the philippines. Also, 90million filipinos are not a burden if and only if, instead of minding their own betterment alone, they start sharing and caring with one another. That's the values formation that I'm talking about that this country badly needs if it wants to move forward. What can condoms, pills, and IUD do to poor people? Can it cure hunger? Man can live without sex but not without food. The problem is economic. So the solution should be economic as well. But there is no economic development without values transformation first. That's why I proposed the two solutions earlier.
Kahapon sa ganap na 1:59 AM · Gustuhin · 1 tao
Let me elucidate my point further. if we managed to transform the values of the people and we implement just economic policies [policies provide opportunities for all while striking critical balance between socio economic development and environmental protection], Philippines will still have resources to support its population for the next 300 years and further. There seems to be scarcity issues right now because of rampant greed of many people in power and ongoing unjust economic policies that enrich the few at a greater environmental cost. Remove this two and you have no problem. Condoms, pills, and IUD are not the solutions.
Kahapon sa ganap na 2:13 AM · Gustuhin
The problem with your example is that population is vulnerable to other external factors like diseases, calamities, and culture as compared to the grains of sand that are assumed to continue flowing to the basin eternally undisturbed. Since population is vulnerable to other factors, there can be periods of time wherein in population will not grow as one expects it to be. You are assuming that the growth rate will be constant forever. That is wrong. Growth rate varies from year to year, decade to decade, etc. Your example is flawed.
Kahapon sa ganap na 2:28 AM · Gustuhin
Man cannot live without sex, it's as natural and instinctive as taking a dump. And as I have said in a post before, corruption is an essential part in a democracy, that is it's Achilles' heel as well as it's greatest asset. I might have said in an earlier post that humans are programmable but they're not that programmable. Teaching humans to not be greedy and to override their programming to 'vote for whoever their family and friends are voting' and 'vote for who ever looks the best in their infomercials' would take too much effort and would span a generation or two(so you may be right when you said that your not just thinking withing your lifetime). Besides, greed is an essential part of success. I mean Bill Gates is greedy, and so are most of th most influential people of this time. And lastly,please define "economic" we might have differing definitions.
Kahapon sa ganap na 2:43 AM · Gustuhin
And so, to summarize my incredibly long post: yours is just a pipe dream. Just economic policies would be difficult to implement because we have differing definitions of what is just, all human's do, unless it's a borrowed ideal of course. I'll end this with a quote that I'll hope you'll understand the meaning of. Who will watch the watchmen?(I know it doesn't refer directly to what we're talking about but just apply it in a different manner, k?)
Kahapon sa ganap na 2:49 AM · Gustuhin
Of course not. Man can live without sex, don’t you know that? If you can't live without sex, well, not all men are like you. Comparing sex with taking a dump is downright pathetic. Man will die if he fails to defecate for 1 month, but I assure you that taking out sex from your lifestyle for a month will not kill you. Also, I don't buy the idea that corruption is part of democracy. Corruption is illegal in a democratic country. If you doubt this, I dare you to embezzle public funds in the open, let’s see if the government will give you honors instead. If for you, corruption is a norm, then you have a problem: you are part of the existing problem. So why blame the unborn for the problems of which you are a part of?
Also, what is wrong in teaching people not to become greedy? At least it is better than teaching people to tolerate and participate in corrupt practices and similar acts. If it takes a lifetime teaching people not to become greedy and on how to elect right leaders, so what? The benefits of these are enormous and unprecedented so all trouble of doing it will surely be worth it. Doing this is the least that we can do in making this world a better place to live in for the next generation.
Actually, it is you who is the one thinking only within your lifetime. You are asking for instant solutions to deeply-seated and complex problems that even your IUDs, condoms and pills can’t even give. You ignored the fact that the problems we have right now didn’t occur overnight. They are products of years and generations of indifference and selfishness. We are just reaping what we sown. Understandably, the process of satisfaction or reparation requires the same amount of time. You have not proven that values transformation and implementing just economic policies are not solutions to our problems. The bible however, is very clear:
“ANG MATUWID NA PAMUMUHAY NG MGA MAMAMAYAN AY MAGPAPADAKILA NG KANILANG BAYAN NGUNIT ANG PAMUMUHAY NA MAKASALANAN, SA BAYAN AY MAGDUDULOT NG KAHIHIYAN”. [Kawikaan 14:34]
It’s righteousness that will propel our country to progress. Not greediness which is a sin.
Regarding your statement that greed is an essential part of success, FYI, not all successful people are greedy. Your fallacious statement is an insult to every successful people. Working for gain is not greediness, particularly if you do it to contribute not only for your own welfare but also to the society as a whole. The “success” you are referring is individualistic in nature, not holistic in the context of a community or nation. So your assumption is flawed. Actually, that is one of the many reasons why this country of ours is poor. We have handful of rich men who are so greedy to share their bounty to the poor & since greed knows no boundaries, these greedy men continue to enrich themselves by abusing the national patrimony while leaving the rest of the Filipinos poor and suffering from negative externalities of their businesses.
The point is, greedy people will not make a prosperous nation because they will be busy biting and consuming each other. The bible warns that such degree of greed results to annihilation:
Nguni't kung kayo-kayo rin ang nangagkakagatan at nangagsasakmalan, magsipagingat kayo na baka kayo'y mangaglipulan sa isa't isa. [Gal5:15]
You have asked me to define the term “economic” and yet fail to show your card? I will not succumb to your requirement because I think it is just a desperate effort to divert the issue. Prove to me first that values transformation and implementing just economic policies are not solutions to our problems right now but condom, IUD, and pills.
Also, what is wrong in teaching people not to become greedy? At least it is better than teaching people to tolerate and participate in corrupt practices and similar acts. If it takes a lifetime teaching people not to become greedy and on how to elect right leaders, so what? The benefits of these are enormous and unprecedented so all trouble of doing it will surely be worth it. Doing this is the least that we can do in making this world a better place to live in for the next generation.
Actually, it is you who is the one thinking only within your lifetime. You are asking for instant solutions to deeply-seated and complex problems that even your IUDs, condoms and pills can’t even give. You ignored the fact that the problems we have right now didn’t occur overnight. They are products of years and generations of indifference and selfishness. We are just reaping what we sown. Understandably, the process of satisfaction or reparation requires the same amount of time. You have not proven that values transformation and implementing just economic policies are not solutions to our problems. The bible however, is very clear:
“ANG MATUWID NA PAMUMUHAY NG MGA MAMAMAYAN AY MAGPAPADAKILA NG KANILANG BAYAN NGUNIT ANG PAMUMUHAY NA MAKASALANAN, SA BAYAN AY MAGDUDULOT NG KAHIHIYAN”. [Kawikaan 14:34]
It’s righteousness that will propel our country to progress. Not greediness which is a sin.
Regarding your statement that greed is an essential part of success, FYI, not all successful people are greedy. Your fallacious statement is an insult to every successful people. Working for gain is not greediness, particularly if you do it to contribute not only for your own welfare but also to the society as a whole. The “success” you are referring is individualistic in nature, not holistic in the context of a community or nation. So your assumption is flawed. Actually, that is one of the many reasons why this country of ours is poor. We have handful of rich men who are so greedy to share their bounty to the poor & since greed knows no boundaries, these greedy men continue to enrich themselves by abusing the national patrimony while leaving the rest of the Filipinos poor and suffering from negative externalities of their businesses.
The point is, greedy people will not make a prosperous nation because they will be busy biting and consuming each other. The bible warns that such degree of greed results to annihilation:
Nguni't kung kayo-kayo rin ang nangagkakagatan at nangagsasakmalan, magsipagingat kayo na baka kayo'y mangaglipulan sa isa't isa. [Gal5:15]
You have asked me to define the term “economic” and yet fail to show your card? I will not succumb to your requirement because I think it is just a desperate effort to divert the issue. Prove to me first that values transformation and implementing just economic policies are not solutions to our problems right now but condom, IUD, and pills.
Kahapon sa ganap na 9:40 PM · Gustuhin
Values transformation and implementing just economic policies are not pipe dreams. To say so will mean that man is inherently corrupt, greedy, irredeemable, and hopeless. If man is irredeemable and hopeless, why all the trouble to pass RH Bill? Why offer RH Bill as a solution? It will be useless anyway since man is already doomed from the start. It will not make any difference.
As to your opinion, we don’t have to spend all our time debating on what is the right and proper meaning of the term JUST in order to implement just economic policies. So long as the policy provides opportunity to those who are willing to work, providing incentives commensurate to the amount and quality of effort done, without jeopardizing the integrity of local environment to continually sustain the needs of the society and without undermining the inherent rights of the people, it is just. Other countries were able to implement just economic policies, why can’t we?
As to your opinion, we don’t have to spend all our time debating on what is the right and proper meaning of the term JUST in order to implement just economic policies. So long as the policy provides opportunity to those who are willing to work, providing incentives commensurate to the amount and quality of effort done, without jeopardizing the integrity of local environment to continually sustain the needs of the society and without undermining the inherent rights of the people, it is just. Other countries were able to implement just economic policies, why can’t we?
Kahapon sa ganap na 10:00 PM · Gustuhin
DOOM it... let it DOOM itself..
Kahapon sa ganap na 11:11 PM · Gustuhin
Franz Luigi Lugena RH Bill should be doomed.
10 oras na ang nakalipas · Gustuhin
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